Frontpage Interview’s guest today is Radwan A. Masmoudi, the Founder and President of the Center for the Study of Islam & Democracy (CSID), a Washington-based non-profit organization dedicated to promoting freedom, democracy, and good governance in the Arab/Muslim world.

FP: Mr. Masmoudi, welcome to Frontpage Interview.

Masmoudi: Thank you, Jamie. It is a pleasure to be with you. 

FP: So first things first, what are the main goals and objectives of the Center for the Study of Islam & Democracy?

Masmoudi: The main objectives of CSID are to contribute to the promotion of democracy, good governance, freedom, and human rights in the Arab and Muslim world. 

As American Muslims we have been monitoring the situation in the Muslim world, and especially the Arab world (which represents about 20% of the Muslim world) with great frustration and concern.  Despite enormous wealth, human capital and natural resources, Arab and Muslim countries rank at the bottom of the development scale.  Poverty and corruption are rising, and unemployment is very high (between 20 and 40% depending on the country). 

Furthermore, a majority of the 300 Million Arabs are under the age of 21, so these statistics are bound to get much worse in the next 5 to 10 years.  Millions of young Arabs and Muslims are growing with a sense of loss and despair, with no hope for a better future.  They are not allowed to criticize their government, and if they do want to become active or involved, they find that all avenues for peaceful activism are shut down.  This is an environment that can only encourage violence and extremism, and unless we can turn things around, will lead necessarily to further worsening of the situation.  This is a serious threat not only to the Arab and Muslim world, but also to the entire planet as Muslims represent 1.4 billion people on earth and are the majority in over 65 countries. 

In my opinion, democracy is the only solution to this disastrous situation as it will put people in charge of their own destiny, and give them the means and the tools to improve their conditions and live a dignified life, the way our creator has intended for us all to live.

FP: So what has your organization achieved so far?

Masmoudi: This is a huge undertaking, and we must realize that we will not be able to succeed in only a few years.  In the past 6 years (CSID was founded in 1999 in Washington DC) CSID has worked very hard and diligently to educate people -here and abroad, Muslims and non-Muslims alike- on the critical questions related to the compatibility between Islam and democracy. 

In the United States, we hope to educate the public and the policymakers that it is in the US national interest to promote freedom and democracy in the Arab/Muslim world.  Our old policy of giving tacit (and sometimes not so tacit) support to dictators and oppressors in the Arab and Muslim world will only exasperate the situation and make the situation much worse. 

Our nation was built on the great moral principles of equality, justice, and freedom and our foreign policy must be in line and in conformity with these principles.  Our annual conference, we have had six so far, is held in Washington DC every year (usually in April) and brings together around 300 democracy scholars, activists, and practitioners from all the over the world.  All of these papers have been published online (both in English and in Arabic, and soon in other languages) to enlighten the public about these issues.  In the Muslim world, CSID has organized over 30 seminars, conferences, and workshops on democracy, tolerance, and good governance in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen, Bahrain, Turkey, and Iran. 

We also organized two major international conferences in Nigeria and Sudan on "what is Shariah?" and how it can be modernized and updated, through the process of Ijtihad, to address the needs of the Muslims in the 21st century.  Very soon - God willing - CSID will be opening two regional offices, one in Morocco and one in Jordan, and launching a new Network of Democrats in the Arab world.  The purpose of this network will be to share knowledge, experience, and information as well as to provide training to young democracy activists so that their voice and their organizations become better able to reach and attract the masses.  Similarly, we are working on publishing a new textbook (in Arabic) that will be used to train over 2,000 people in Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, and Jordan on democracy and how it works.

FP: So you believe Islam can be compatible with our notion of democracy? If so, why do we have no real democracies in the Islamic world?

Masmoudi: Yes, Islam is compatible with democracy and can be interpreted in a way that supports democratic values and principles.  Unfortunately, Islam (like all other religions) can also be interpreted in a way that it becomes compatible and supportive of oppression and tyranny. 

The problem that all of us as Muslims face is which interpretation of Islam will finally win; the old interpretations which may have been valid 6, 10, 14 centuries ago but may not be valid today, or a modern interpretation of the text that can be enlightened and progressive, and yet genuinely Islamic and authentic. 

I believe -and we are all working very hard to achieve this- that ultimately a modern, progressive, and tolerant interpretation of Islam will succeed, but this will not be easy because current regimes are not allowing Muslims (and the masses) to participate in this debate or to listen to different views and opinions.  There are many reasons why we have no real democracies in the Islamic world (although Turkey, Malaysia, and Indonesia are well on their way) and these reasons are political, economic, social, cultural, historic, as well as religious.  The problem is that many Muslims are not able to distinguish between Islam and the 14 century old history and culture of their societies.  They think that if something is traditional, it must be Islamic, while in reality many practices have nothing to do with Islam, and have simply been inherited or developed over the past 14 centuries.  Ijtihad, which is the process of using intellectual reasoning to interpret the text (i.e the Qur'an and the Hadith) based in the changing needs, priorities, and conditions of the Muslim communities has been stopped for the past 500 years, basically since the fall of Qordoba and Andalusia.  As a result, we are faced with outdated ideas and interpretations that have not kept up with the rapid changes that we are seeing in the world -all around us- today. 

FP: Can Islam be secular? For instance, modernity and democracy can only exist in society if women are given full rights, equality and all forms of self-determination, including sexual self-determination. If women cannot have such rights then they cannot truly be free and society cannot truly be free in the Western notion of freedom. Comment?

Masmoudi: I think so, but we must first explain what we mean by secular.  In France, secularism means that religion has no place in the public sphere and is only a private matter not to be seen or displayed in public.  This radical and extremist interpretation of secularism will never succeed in the Muslim world, because Islam - like Christianity and Judaism but even more so - seeks to guide not only the individual but also the community as a whole.  If on the other hand, secularism means that we have to separate the religious institutions and religious scholars from the political institutions of the state, then I think this is fully compatible with Islam and is in the best interest of all Muslim societies.  I believe an overwhelming majority of Muslims will support this idea because a religious or theocratic state can be very oppressive, and this is not what Muslims want or desire.  They want Islam and Muslim scholars to provide guidance to the people and to the state, but not to rule themselves because neither Islam nor democracy can be imposed on the people.  The experience of Iran clearly shows that when a clergy controls the government, human rights and basic freedoms are usually sacrificed since it becomes almost impossible to criticize or question them or their behavior. This also tends to hurt religion itself as people always detest anything that is imposed on them.   This is why the Qur'an clearly states that "there is no compulsion in religion".  In Islam, the function of the State is to serve the people and not to represent God on earth.

FP: OK just a second, let’s narrow in on this issue. Overall, as you stated earlier, you believe that Sharia can be modernized and updated. How exactly does one “modernize” stonings and amputations? Once you allow freedom and individualism and everything that must come with it (i.e. women’s sexual self-determination) Sharia law must by necessity be totally negated, no?

Tell me how a “modern” Sharia would allow women to do whatever they chose to do with their lives, including in the sexual realm, and how Muslims under this “modern Sharia” could choose to reject Islam if they wanted to and hold public vociferous meetings about it (meetings that would include them saying aloud that they do not consider the Prophet a Prophet at all, etc.).

These are crucial rights in a true democracy. Without them, you will have repression on many realms. And you do realize that once you begin to explain that this isn’t “the Islamic way,” that you then immediately are admitting that our definitions of democracy and freedom are totally different, no?

Masmoudi: Shariah is about a lot more than just "stoning and punishments".  First of all, Shariah in Arabic simply means "rule of law" and therefore we cannot be against it.  Many Muslim scholars have written about the "objectives of rule of law"  (Maqasid al-Shariah) and have explained that these objectives are the protection of life, property, mind, family honor, and religion.  Anything that helps to protect and safeguard these principle objectives is in accordance with Shariah, and anything that helps to destroy them or weaken them is against Shariah.  These punishments (stonings and amputations) were not invented by Islam.  They existed at the time (14 centuries ago) in many countries, cultures, and religions.  The majority of Islamic legal scholars are now of the legal opinion that these punishments can be changed to more modern and/or culturally acceptable forms of punishments for these crimes (theft, rape, adultery, murder, drugs, etc...).

Freedom and individualism do not mean that the society has to allow and tolerate everything and anything.  While we can discuss whether adultery should be a crime or not (remember it is still a crime in the US military!) the majority of Muslims do believe that adultery is a crime because it threatens the fabric of the family and therefore of society.  However, whether or not adultery is a crime, and what its punishment will be, should be discussed within the context of each country and each society.  Whether a certain Muslim society wants to punish or legalize adultery (or pornography, abortion, sex outside of marriage, etc...) should therefore be resolved democratically by majority rule.  All of these acts remain morally wrong and reprehensible in the eyes of Islam (and all other religions) but this does not necessarily mean that they have to be banned by law.  Democracy will allow Muslims to choose representatives and leaders who can solve these difficult issues in a humane, modern, and genuinely Islamic way.  Democracy will open the door for real Ijtihad and re-interpretation of the text based on the needs, conditions, and priorities of Muslim societies in the 21st century.

As for your last point about the right of a Muslim to change his or her religion, I believe Islam respects that right simply on the basis of the verse "there is no compulsion in religion".  There are  also a number of other verses that mention that "whoever wants to believe should be free to believe and whoever wants to disbelieve should also be free to do so".  Forcing people to believe in a religion or in God is counter-productive, stupid, and defeats the whole purpose of life and of religion.  It only leads to a society of hypocrites and this is what Islam is against.  Did you know, for example, that in the 2nd and 3rd century of Islam (i.e. 8th and 9th century after Jesus, peace be upon him), Muslim scholars were discussing the existence of God with non-believers within the compounds of Mosques!!  This is the true and real Islam that we are trying to revive today.

FP: Well my friend, if this is really the true and real Islam, then we are of course all behind you and support you in your noble, valiant and crucial effort.

Some of the themes raised here are of course difficult and problematic, with no easy answers. The trouble is that while one can point to many “tolerant” verses in Islam, in contrast to each one exist the verses that serve as the foundation to the totalitarian and aggressive Islam we see in many parts of the world today.  Prophet Muhammad’s famous dictum, baddala deenahu, faqtuhulu — “If anyone changes his religion, kill him” (Bukhari, vol. 9, bk. 84, no. 57) is one of the foundations to Islam's problem with the freedom of conscience. How will the Muslim world negate this teaching, and many other teachings (i.e. the instruction to fight unbelievers, Qur’an 9:29 etc.) and yet remain true to its foundations and purpose?

In any case, we'll have to have this debate in another forum my friend. We've been battling these issues and themes out in Frontpage's pages for awhile now -- and of course we welcome you to enter this dialogue at a future stage. Our purpose clearly isn't to hash all of this out here today.

Suffice it to say that, while it is a given that the struggle for the soul of Islam will be a difficult one, you and your organization are truly leading an admirable and crucial battle, and you are providing an essential possibility of hope. So we are behind you my friend and wish you success.

So before we go, tell us, what can the US do to promote democracy in the Arab and Muslim world?

Masmoudi: The U.S. can do a lot to promote freedom and democracy in the Arab/ Muslim world.  For one thing, it can send a clear message to all rulers and leaders that if they want to be allies and friends of the U.S., they must be democratic and respect the will of the majority and the rights of the minorities.  Economic aid, trade, diplomatic ties, cultural and technological exchanges all have to be tied to how democratic a certain regime or country is.  If a certain leader or regime cannot prove that it represents the will of of the people (through genuinely free and fair elections, then those leaders ought to be considered (by the U.S. and the international community) as an illegitimate leader or head of State.  In addition to these "sticks", which are meant to put pressure on dictators, the U.S. government can also provide "carrots '', in the form of financial aid and support to governments and regimes that are transitioning toward democracy.  Once we have one or two successful and prosperous democracies in the Arab world, this will become a very good and attractive model for others to follow.  Thirdly, the U.S. can support civil society and non-governmental organizations (both local and regional) that are working to promote and defend democracy.  This should include reaching-out to both secularists and moderate Islamists, who renounce violence and advocate democracy, freedom, and equality for all citizens.

FP: Radwan Masmoudi, thank you for joining us today and we wish you the best.

Masmoudi:  Thank you.  It was a pleasure to have this discussion with you.